Posts by Mad Sweeney

38

[Day 6 - 4/8]The Royal Commissions investigation of child sexual abuse within Jehovah’s Witnesses. + VIDEO

by C0ntr013r in

unfortunately, part 1 will not be available until later, but i thought i give you the other parts anyway .

day six of the proceedings:.

part 2 has been uploaded and part 3,4 and (5?

[Day 6 - 4/8]The Royal Commissions investigation of child sexual abuse within Jehovah’s Witnesses. + VIDEO

by C0ntr013r in

unfortunately, part 1 will not be available until later, but i thought i give you the other parts anyway .

day six of the proceedings:.

part 2 has been uploaded and part 3,4 and (5?

Mad Sweeney

In a few hours I'm going to run into the quandary of whether to watch Wednesday's live session without having completed Tuesday's afternoon session.

I don't know what to do! Should I phone the branch?

39

Rodney Spinks' Performance

by maksutov in

it seems like there has not been as much discussion here about the rc testimony on day 6 (4th august) as there has been about previous days.

i was quite surprised by rodney spinks' testimony, which was a marked contrast to the bungling and inarticulate testimony of the elders that appeared before him.

spinks seemed reasonably co-operative, and a lot more willing to concede points than anyone else has been.

He was incredibly insolent much of the time and his humility was palpably fake. "As I have already stated. . . " prefacing many answers. So what? Mr. Stewart can ask you the same question over and over if he so chooses and it's your job to answer consistently. I wanted to smack him.

21

where there was a conflict between the Bible and science, the Bible would prevail, because all scripture is "inspired by God"

by freemindfade in

thought i would put this in its own thread.

it another embarrassing statement from the rc (royal commission not regional convention lol).

it's not even one about abuse, its about the jw's stance on science and the bible.

Mad Sweeney

Paul (or those who wrote Bible books in his name) was a misogynist. So are the JWs.

38

[Day 6 - 4/8]The Royal Commissions investigation of child sexual abuse within Jehovah’s Witnesses. + VIDEO

by C0ntr013r in

unfortunately, part 1 will not be available until later, but i thought i give you the other parts anyway .

day six of the proceedings:.

part 2 has been uploaded and part 3,4 and (5?

Mad Sweeney

If you can't get the bugs worked out of the videos, we still have the transcript. We could get a group together with a camera and re-enact it, Investigation Discovery style. Who wants to play who?

21

where there was a conflict between the Bible and science, the Bible would prevail, because all scripture is "inspired by God"

by freemindfade in

thought i would put this in its own thread.

it another embarrassing statement from the rc (royal commission not regional convention lol).

it's not even one about abuse, its about the jw's stance on science and the bible.

Mad Sweeney

"government of the day"
"Bible principle that will endure forever"

The government is a temporary nuisance. The Borg doctrine is eternal (subject to new light).

10

How long will all the confidential material be available?

by C0ntr013r in

this is certainly a gold mine of information:.

http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/exhibits/636f01a5-50db-4b59-a35e-a24ae07fb0ad/case-study-29,-july-2015,-sydney.

http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-study/636f01a5-50db-4b59-a35e-a24ae07fb0ad/case-study-29,-july-2015,-sydney.

Mad Sweeney

Do you mind if I share that google drive link on the Facebook group that's discussing the Royal Commission, wifibandit?

21

where there was a conflict between the Bible and science, the Bible would prevail, because all scripture is "inspired by God"

by freemindfade in

thought i would put this in its own thread.

it another embarrassing statement from the rc (royal commission not regional convention lol).

it's not even one about abuse, its about the jw's stance on science and the bible.

Mad Sweeney

This is from today's (August 4) testimony. Mr. Spinks is from the Service Department of the Australian branch.

21

where there was a conflict between the Bible and science, the Bible would prevail, because all scripture is "inspired by God"

by freemindfade in

thought i would put this in its own thread.

it another embarrassing statement from the rc (royal commission not regional convention lol).

it's not even one about abuse, its about the jw's stance on science and the bible.

Mad Sweeney

Here is that exchange from the transcript.

12 MR STEWART: Q. Does it have to be an elder who

13 undertakes the investigation? Let me put that differently:

14 does it have to be an elder to whom an allegation of child

15 sexual abuse is made? In other words, you have said it

16 might be an elder with someone else, perhaps a sister from

17 the congregation or whomever, but does it have to be an

18 elder at all?

19 A. I think, again, if you re‐read the case studies, you

20 will find numerous examples of where the parents or

21 guardians have provided the statement without intervention

22 from the elders, so that the clear answer to that is, no,

23 that doesn't have to ‐‐

24

25 Q. Well, they have provided it to the elder?

26 A. So, if you are saying, then, at some point are the

27 elders involved in the investigation process, the answer is

28 yes.

29

30 THE CHAIR: QWhy is it necessary to have elders from

31 that particular church carry out this function, as opposed

32 to going outside, to people who aren't known?

33 A. I think it's a very ‐ I think it is an excellent

34 suggestion and one that has been discussed at length by us

35 over the last couple of weeks when that has been raised.

36 I think we've taken one step towards it. We've got a lot

37 of other steps to take, as you have highlighted, but one

38 step is, at least when it gets to the judicial stage, to

39 make sure that that has outside involvement. But I think,

40 again, it's a very good point, your Honour.

41

42 Q. Is there any possibility of having women join in the

43 decision‐making process?

44 A. Scripturally ‐ I appreciate that's the pivotal

45 question and that comes to the question of is it likely

46 that women will take on the role of elders in the

47 congregation, and, scripturally, that's not the

1 arrangement.

2

3 Q. Your answer to my question is: there is no

4 possibility of women being involved in the decision‐making

5 process; is that right?

6 A. I'm happy to say a clear yes. Will Jehovah's

7 Witnesses find a way to adjust the scriptural process of

8 the elders being men in the congregation, and my answer to

9 that is no.

10

11 Q. You understand the Bible, I assume, in its social and

12 political context, when it was written?

13 A. I do.

14

15 Q. And social and political contexts change over time,

16 don't they?

17 A. They do.

18

19 Q. Does the approach of Jehovahs to the application of

20 the Bible, as a consequence, change as society changes?

21 A. If you are referring to Jehovah's Witnesses, I ‐ we

22 won't change what is a clear scriptural arrangement. So

23 are there things that we would all do ‐ that we do

24 differently now that are based on Bible principles?

25 I think your Honour has highlighted a very clear one, in

26 that do Jehovah's Witnesses apply the Mosaic law from an

27 ancient civilisation that dealt with the theocratic, the

28 civil and the criminal all as one code? No, we don't,

29 because, as Mr de Rooy said, Christ ended the law. A clear

30 distinction between theocratic and the law. So have things

31 changed over the time? Yes. Will some of those clear

32 instructions in the scriptures change from the Christian

33 era? I don't believe they will for Jehovah's Witnesses,

34 because of the application of the arrangements in the

35 Bible.

36

37 And so I have reasoned through this myself,

38 your Honour, that ‐ will Jehovah's Witnesses adjust what we

39 see as clear instructions in the scriptures? Will Muslim

40 people change what they believe in the Koran? Will

41 Aboriginal people change what they believe is in their

42 culture? I think there are just some things that are so

43 deeply a part of their faith and belief system, that what

44 we need to do is make sure that we conform with the law,

45 that we do our best to harmonise with the culture. But do

46 some of those things fit neatly into 21st Century

47 Australia ‐ I understand the point that you are making.

1

2 Q. I take it that if it was the case that there was

3 a conflict between what science might tell us about human

4 behaviour and the way these things should be dealt with and

5 your understanding of the Bible, then the Bible would still

6 prevail?

7 A. All scripture is inspired of God. We ‐ like many

8 Christians, we are not fanatically trying to find

9 references to make life difficult; we are applying

10 scripture as we read it, in the best way we can, to

11 sensitively integrate with modern society.

12

13 Q. But you understand the point: there may well be

14 areas, and we're in one such area, where science has taught

15 us a lot in recent years about sexual abuse and how to

16 appropriately respond to it, but if that science was in

17 conflict with your understanding of the Bible, then the

18 Bible would prevail; is that correct?

19 A. Absolutely the Bible will prevail. And if I could,

20 your Honour, that's why hundreds of Jehovah's Witnesses are

21 in prison in South Korea; in Taganrog, Russia; Azerbaijan;

22 Eritrea, because they won't budge on a clear Bible

23 principle that will endure forever.

24

25 Q. So if the law of the country was to prescribe a mode

26 of behaviour which was in conflict with your understanding

27 of the Bible, what would happen then?

28 A. We would apply the words in the book of Acts, 5:29, to

29 obey God as ruler rather than man, and as we did here

30 during the Second World War, as thousands of Jehovah's

31 Witnesses did when they refused to comply with the Nazi

32 regime. The fact that the government at the time makes

33 a law, Jehovah's Witnesses will always obey scripture, and

34 that's why we have 28 successful outcomes in the European

35 Court of Human Rights, because we won't budge where there

36 is a clear Bible principle that happens to be in conflict

37 with a government of the day.

38

39 THE CHAIR: We might take lunch.

38

[Day 6 - 4/8]The Royal Commissions investigation of child sexual abuse within Jehovah’s Witnesses. + VIDEO

by C0ntr013r in

unfortunately, part 1 will not be available until later, but i thought i give you the other parts anyway .

day six of the proceedings:.

part 2 has been uploaded and part 3,4 and (5?

Mad Sweeney

For those of you waiting on #1 with bated breath, here's a little snippet from the transcript to whet your appetite:

47 Q. Thank you. In your statement, Mr Pencheff, at

1 paragraph 4.1, you say that, to the best of your

2 recollection, you have only dealt with a couple of cases of

3 child sexual abuse within the church in your time, "as they

4 are a very rare event amongst Jehovah's Witnesses". Now,

5 you will have heard that it has been presented in these

6 proceedings that there were 1,006 alleged perpetrators of

7 child sexual abuse within the Jehovah's Witness Church in

8 65 years ‐ did you hear that?

9 A. Yes, I did see that.

10

11 Q. And in respect of a substantial number of those

12 alleged perpetrators, there may be several allegations; do

13 you accept that?

14 A. Sorry, can you repeat that, sorry?

15

16 Q. In respect of substantial numbers, or at least some of

17 those alleged perpetrators, there may be several

18 allegations, in other words, more than one case.

19 A. So more than one person accusing the perpetrator; is

20 that what you are saying?

21

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. I guess so. I wouldn't know.

24

25 Q. But even on the figure of 1,006, that amounts to

26 15 perpetrators per year, on average, which is more than

27 one a month. On that basis, would you still say that it's

28 an extremely rare event amongst Jehovah's Witnesses?

29 A. Considering the number of congregations and the number

30 of cases, yes.